tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post3095629221302704597..comments2024-03-29T09:21:43.016-04:00Comments on Today's Little Ditty: Laura Shovan: Why I Hate RhymeMichelle Heidenrich Barneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02051827857519159837noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-44607512896746796722014-09-17T07:04:36.499-04:002014-09-17T07:04:36.499-04:00I loved reading about rhyme and rhythm and the ana...I loved reading about rhyme and rhythm and the anatomy of poetry - something that I often take for granted and very rarely consider. I have my own isues with rhyming text - but I understand its lilting soothing quality, and clearly there is a science to it that I have yet to learn and master. :)GatheringBookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04477710897574769648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-84467513442441510722014-09-15T22:08:19.093-04:002014-09-15T22:08:19.093-04:00P.S. And yes, I realize there are some great eleme...P.S. And yes, I realize there are some great elementary, middleschool and high school poetry teachers out there. Thank you too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-22450795662642201422014-09-15T14:55:04.091-04:002014-09-15T14:55:04.091-04:00I sometimes teach adult picture book workshops. Th...I sometimes teach adult picture book workshops. That means I spend time trying to dissuade a lot of writers from using end-rhyme when their "Um, what rhymes with____?" search has ruined the logic, emotional flow and conciseness of their story. Laura demonstrated so well here how that process can quicly turn a fine idea into a crazy quilt vs. a thoughtful poem. Thanks for that!<br /><br />And I must say--elementary, middleschool and high school poetry teachers--that many of my adult writers are convinced that their trite, sing-songy couplets are fabulous poetry ... because that's how 'a poem' was defined for them when they were 7 , 11 or 15. They got an 'A' for rhyming bee with tree, yet somehow didn't come to grasp the art or heart of poetry.<br /><br />As everyone here knows, a poem has to pack the punch of an observation, an experience, an epiphany into a few elegant lines of carefully chosen words, juxtaposed (not simply so they rhyme) but so they best convey some clear, unique and insightful moment. I love Laura's observation, "It’s not the poem’s job to be a scaffold for a series of rhymes." (and with credit to her, I'm going to use it in my workshops from now on.) : - )<br /><br />Lessons about the forms of poetry, whether rhyming couplets, free verse, haiku or sonnets, should somehow still manage to convey, even stress, to the burgeoning poet that the task, the craft, a poem is mostly about creating a uniquely put, un-trite, carefully worded emotional snapshot. And just a little bit about finding a fitting rhyme for snuffles.<br /><br />Here's to a great article and the energetic conversation it's elicited! All best.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-83386508668473394612014-09-15T08:51:27.876-04:002014-09-15T08:51:27.876-04:00Excellent post, Laura. Excellent post, Laura. Jillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18401873777944815512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-58115370333703212132014-09-14T23:22:54.005-04:002014-09-14T23:22:54.005-04:00Michelle ~ thanks for giving Laura this space toda...Michelle ~ thanks for giving Laura this space today. Laura~ Myra Cohn Livingston would have hugged you--had she been a hugger (she was not)! This is exactly what she taught and preached. You've said it so wonderfully. I'll pass it on to teacher friends and other writers. Merci!April Halprin Waylandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10760393691320267240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-32262435291792047932014-09-14T23:16:25.632-04:002014-09-14T23:16:25.632-04:00Diane! We'd call it our P.U! We could write G...Diane! We'd call it our P.U! We could write Grievance Poems and have Poetry Bargaining Rights...April Halprin Waylandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10760393691320267240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-81932375529385498542014-09-14T19:20:53.598-04:002014-09-14T19:20:53.598-04:00I love the way you said this-"It’s not the po...I love the way you said this-"It’s not the poem’s job to be a scaffold for a series of rhymes." To me, that is the secret! And I loved the cartoon! Very funny!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-49753741267098761202014-09-13T18:37:51.287-04:002014-09-13T18:37:51.287-04:00Thanks, Keri. Amazing Michelle found that cartoon!...Thanks, Keri. Amazing Michelle found that cartoon!Author Amokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13636391982938592789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-33599212552279701152014-09-13T18:36:35.659-04:002014-09-13T18:36:35.659-04:00Thanks, Donna. It's definitely a balance, as t...Thanks, Donna. It's definitely a balance, as teaching always is. The art and challenge of being a visiting teacher is to notice which children need a push, which need encouragement, and who will do best if you leave them alone to just write.Author Amokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13636391982938592789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-41446641982125176972014-09-13T18:34:40.301-04:002014-09-13T18:34:40.301-04:00Keep working on it, Catherine. One of my favorite ...Keep working on it, Catherine. One of my favorite exercises for (near) rhyme is called "Murder Most Vowel." You'll find it in the book FEG: Ridiculous Poems for Intelligent Children, by Robin Hirsch.Author Amokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13636391982938592789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-88507528963714231742014-09-13T18:33:19.886-04:002014-09-13T18:33:19.886-04:00It depends on what the goal of a particular poetry...It depends on what the goal of a particular poetry workshop is. Even young writers can have a great time with a rhyming form such as limericks. When we're asking them to write about their own lives and experiences, I've found that free verse offers 3rd and 4th graders the most freedom in their initial drafts. Crafting happens during the revision process. As I mentioned above, I'd love to hear more about wordplay lessons that others like.Author Amokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13636391982938592789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-60793613565304198902014-09-13T16:07:50.754-04:002014-09-13T16:07:50.754-04:00Very well done, Laura, and the cartoon at the topi...Very well done, Laura, and the cartoon at the topic is PERFECT. :-)Kerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07754424789728293252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-58782077259559911882014-09-13T09:45:28.948-04:002014-09-13T09:45:28.948-04:00Such a great post - one I mean to share with my ki...Such a great post - one I mean to share with my kids who run into rhyming issues all the time.Tarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626451110946889157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-49698445640574674062014-09-13T08:27:28.113-04:002014-09-13T08:27:28.113-04:00Lots to ponder
as I wander
thru the comments.Lots to ponder<br />as I wander<br />thru the comments.Mary Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09078793537148794310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-23622573282994486742014-09-12T21:59:40.835-04:002014-09-12T21:59:40.835-04:00Terrific post. Thanks for articulating this so wel...Terrific post. Thanks for articulating this so well.Rosihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01294774973863802821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-60684592395032612702014-09-12T18:34:17.292-04:002014-09-12T18:34:17.292-04:00I have always struggled with rhyme. Usually I tel...I have always struggled with rhyme. Usually I tell my students I am really bad at it, but if you are good at it, go ahead and try it. This lesson is so revealing. Because it is so true! If I show the kids how hard it is to keep the rhyme going, maybe they will understand the purpose. Thanks for this!Margaret Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04434866104385187658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-74350443141929698922014-09-12T18:15:38.768-04:002014-09-12T18:15:38.768-04:00This is such a smart post, Laura & Michelle! I...This is such a smart post, Laura & Michelle! I always encourage my students to get their ideas down first. If they can make it rhyme without forcing it, that's great. But, as you said, Laura, once young writers get a ridiculous rhyme down on paper, it's hard to convince them their poem doesn't make sense. Thanks for sharing Coatsworth's poem, too. I think I'll go for a walk and enjoy "the closing of day."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-61305376501717738902014-09-12T17:48:46.773-04:002014-09-12T17:48:46.773-04:00Just a great big cheering YES! to add to the choru...Just a great big cheering YES! to add to the chorus. I bet your classrooms love it when you come to visit.<br /><br />Sometimes I DO use rhyme as a jumpstart because it is funny how a couplet can pop into your head and haunt you. But then I try to tear it apart and find the meat.Susan Taylor Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06931432581676140096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-53952408223399206432014-09-12T17:21:03.967-04:002014-09-12T17:21:03.967-04:00I agree to a degree...I did not intend to do that!...I agree to a degree...I did not intend to do that! I also agree with "Free" above. It's a balancing act of both worlds. Rhyming is a skill that shouldn't be pushed, but should still be encouraged...even bad rhymes. How can you get to the good ones, or realizing you haven't made sense, if you don't try it? You can't wait to ride a bike until you know how (my son tried that strategy!), yet you don't push them to ride a two-wheeler before they can walk...it's all balance!<br />Great piece! Thanks for sharing!Donna Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13738281869266957726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-11178008702879149342014-09-12T16:45:28.373-04:002014-09-12T16:45:28.373-04:00Great post, Laura! I'm trying to move away fro...Great post, Laura! I'm trying to move away from rhyme. It keeps pulling me back.catherinemjohnson.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14682281308178996823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-36394363890467167042014-09-12T16:44:06.285-04:002014-09-12T16:44:06.285-04:00Great tips! Thanks, Julie!Great tips! Thanks, Julie!catherinemjohnson.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14682281308178996823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-77063307429280560142014-09-12T15:52:24.772-04:002014-09-12T15:52:24.772-04:00I find rhyme one of the hardest things about writi...I find rhyme one of the hardest things about writing to form and writing poetry in general. Thank you for featuring Laura, Michelle. And thank you Laura for sharing your ideas. Triciahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18350907653629775293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-59776417623822801942014-09-12T14:12:56.624-04:002014-09-12T14:12:56.624-04:00Good post, Laura. When I am writing rhyme, I'l...Good post, Laura. When I am writing rhyme, I'll often pore over a line or word for hours, days, or weeks until I figured it out. Very often, it's not a matter of finding a word that rhymes, but coming up with a different word or a different line (and possibly direction) altogether. As you said, most aspiring writers don't take that kind of time.Matt Forrest Esenwinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04230063389130167424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-27473413620914721632014-09-12T12:42:17.674-04:002014-09-12T12:42:17.674-04:00Enjoyed the Coatsworth poem and Laura's though...Enjoyed the Coatsworth poem and Laura's thoughts about rhyme. As Julie said, good rhymes seem effortless and don't call attention to themselves, detracting from meaning. jamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07859083373087448194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5740307479750463845.post-21763436339428479942014-09-12T12:25:01.860-04:002014-09-12T12:25:01.860-04:00Wow, so much brilliance in this post (and subseque...Wow, so much brilliance in this post (and subsequent comments). Thanks for featuring Laura today, Michelle. This is a post I will look back on often as I sometimes commit crimes against rhymes. = ) Bridget Mageehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185985167366724404noreply@blogger.com